00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:54: Systemic causes of burnout
00:04:18: Vital statements
00:11:11: Shocking subjects
00:16:30: Take-away actions
00:20:40: Remaining ideas
Helen Tupper: Hello, I am Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And I am Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And also you’re listening to week three of the Squiggly Careers Videobook Membership. So, that is the sequence that we’re working in affiliation with LIT Videobooks in January, the place LIT Videobooks have given all people who’s a part of the Videobook Membership free entry to their library of videobooks. And we have now chosen 4 to give attention to, 4 that we weren’t essentially that conversant in beforehand, that we have now watched for everyone and we have tried to take our insights and assume how they might apply to profession growth. However you can too watch it alongside too and get entangled.
So, this week our focus is on Burnout, that’s the videobook that we have now been watching. So, immediately on this episode, Sarah and I are going to speak about our takeouts from watching the videobook, and what we discovered attention-grabbing and helpful. After which tomorrow, you are going to hear a dialog with Sarah and one of many authors of Burnout, Amelia Nagoski.
Sarah Ellis: So, it is value saying, with this videobook, that the main focus is not actually burnout at work, it is extra the systemic causes of burnout. And their focus is specifically on girls, why girls would possibly expertise burnout. And so, I feel if you’re curious to be taught extra about that, there’s some actually attention-grabbing analysis and so they go means, means, means past work and into sort of a lot of totally different areas of life. In the event you’re extra serious about burnout at work, I feel you possibly can watch the primary chapter and doubtless hearken to our conversations, and you may most likely get what you might want to apply to your job and your day-to-day work. So, it’s fairly a special videobook.
There have been some surprises alongside the best way, made Helen and I sort of — we had been like, “Oh, okay, that is fairly totally different to possibly what we’d usually give attention to”. And so, have a go. I feel it is a type of the place you need to see what you assume, see whether or not it really works for you or not. However I do assume a few of the concepts are actually helpful when you join the dots between the analysis that they’ve drawn collectively and executed themselves, after which how one can apply that in your day-to-day.
Helen Tupper: And the ‘them’ is 2 sisters, so they’re twins, the e book has been written by twins, so that you get to see the twins speaking via their insights. One separate factor, which has nothing to do with burnout actually, however it was extra one thing that I discovered helpful yesterday. So, I watched this videobook once I was on the prepare going into London, and I believed it was actually good. So, I logged into the LIT videobooks after which I used to be making my notes on the identical time, and it was on my telephone so the display screen was hovering over my notes so I may watch it on the identical time. So, I opened my notes app on my telephone, after which the little video was simply sitting on the highest of it and I really discovered that actually helpful, in order that I may simply kind up my notes as I used to be watching. I used to be like, “Oh, that is really fairly a helpful, environment friendly means of studying. I appreciated it.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that’s good. And with the videobooks, you possibly can obtain them earlier than commuting so you do not want wi-fi. So, I did that truly for a couple of of them once I knew I might obtained a prepare journey, in order that’s good. And really, you are proper, as a result of I discovered I used to be typically watching them at residence on my laptop computer and I must pause or be like, “I simply want to jot down that down” or, “I simply want to return over that bit”. That will have helped me really to be concurrently making notes.
I do tremendous with the videobooks really, I positively interact with them essentially the most once I was making notes, writing issues down, which we all know, we all know you be taught extra from that. However the minute I simply relaxed an excessive amount of, nearly like sat again in my chair and simply watched it, I obtained distracted. I used to be like, “Oh, I would like to only do that, or what about this?” and I discovered it fairly exhausting, I discovered it fairly exhausting to only keep it up. Whereas once I was like, “No, what’s standing out for me? What’s stunning me? What motion am I going to take?” after which really, nearly to have the ability to do this, I needed to eliminate the distractions. It is fairly attention-grabbing, I feel, the method, as a result of it is like a brand new means of studying, you need to determine easy methods to be sure to are literally studying from it, fairly than just some instances I used to be like, “I am watching a squirrel out of my window, and I’ve simply missed the final 5 minutes.
Helen Tupper: “Again to it”!
Sarah Ellis: Yeah.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, completely! And so, Sarah and I’ve watched all of the videobooks with three questions in thoughts. And the questions are, what assertion has caught; what shocked you; and what are you going to place into motion? And I might say, whether or not you watch those that we have advisable or any of the opposite LIT videobooks within the library, simply to be a bit extra intentional about your watching and studying. I feel it is fairly helpful to do it with these three questions in thoughts. So, Sarah, from Burnout: Fixing Your Stress Cycle, what was one thing that caught?
Sarah Ellis: Nicely, there was a phrase they used, which was, “Which means is one thing that you just make”.
So, one of many factors they make in burnout is that you just’re much less more likely to burn out if you’re linked to one thing greater than your self. And that does not should imply saving the world, however that, I suppose, does imply that you just really feel that you’re contributing indirectly. So, that is likely to be you have obtained a really clear sense of legacy, they use the phrase legacy like, “If I’ve managed to do this stuff via the work that I do, I’ll be ok with that”. It may be to do with group.
And really, they use a phrase that we use, which is they are saying, “A great way to determine your which means in a really sensible means is simply to ask your self, ‘What do we wish individuals to say about us?'” And I used to be like, “Oh, okay, yeah, I feel that could be a good place to begin”. Additionally, I may shortly then join the dots, as a result of I used to be actually watching this via the work lens and considering, “Nicely, what do I need individuals to say in regards to the work that we do at Squiggly Careers and at Superb If?”
After which I can join these dots to go, I need individuals to say it is helpful, I need individuals to suggest it by saying, “This has actually helped me. This has virtually made a distinction to how I method a profession dialog or an interview or growing my confidence”. It positively resonates with me that if you find yourself feeling extra pressured, for those who return to the ‘why’ like, “Why does this matter to me?” typically you could find your means via these extra hectic moments, as a result of it offers you that enhance of motivation.
So, you is likely to be considering, “It has been a extremely busy couple of days”, or I do not know, if it is you and I, often we have over dedicated, we’re doing an excessive amount of. We had that chat earlier than we even began this podcast. However I used to be like, “Oh, however are you aware what? If we do issues which might be helpful and that individuals use of their work, that is nice, that is what we’re right here to do”. So, I discovered that actually useful. And it jogged my memory really of a quote that I am going to come again to in a second from Natalie Campbell.
So, Natalie, who’s the Co-Chief Govt of Belu, which is a water model, which I feel they’re both a social enterprise or a group partnership, so they offer all their earnings, I feel, to a water charity, she ran to be mayor of London. She’s actually inspirational, she’s been on the podcast earlier than. She gave us a quote in her finest piece of profession recommendation for You Coach You, which I feel has that very same sense of whenever you’re enthusiastic about function and which means. And he or she says, “Begin by letting go of the thought of discovering your function. It isn’t in misplaced property someplace, it’s in your consciousness. So, step one is hearken to the moments that deliver you essentially the most pleasure, consolation and ease. That is the place the core of your function resides”. After which she goes on and describes a bit extra about it. However you recognize whenever you hear widespread threads and themes elsewhere, I do not know, it reinforces to you, like, Natalie wasn’t speaking about burnout, however she’s come to a few of the identical conclusions as possibly the analysis. So, that stood out and I actually like that phrase, “Which means is one thing you make”. What about you?
Helen Tupper: Nicely, the assertion, it was, “Do a factor”, which I am going to come again to and clarify why it caught for me. However on the which means, as a result of I wrote that bit down as nicely, I discover it helpful and I appreciated, they talked about 3 ways which you could get which means. So, legacy, so I suppose the dent that I’ve made via my work, that concept; companies others, which means as a result of I make a distinction to different individuals; and in addition connection, like I am a part of a group. I simply thought, if individuals are considering, “Oh, how do I get to which means?” I wrote these issues down, I believed that was fairly helpful. And so they additionally stated, in addition to asking the query that Sarah talked about, the obituary factor. So, think about you are 90 on a park bench, what would you like individuals to say about you, all that stuff.
Simply attention-grabbing, is not it, “What does which means imply to you?” and, “In the event you’ve obtained extra which means, it would allow you to to handle your stress”. I positively took that away. The assertion that caught, “Do a factor”, so that they talked about realized helplessness, which is one thing that Martin Seligman talks about in his work on optimism. The realized helplessness is once we’re in a state of affairs and I feel we really feel like we will not affect it, and so we do not take motion over time. And so, possibly you are at work, you are going via a restructure, or possibly you’re feeling such as you’ve obtained a nasty relationship together with your supervisor or, you recognize, realized helplessness means over time, we simply do not feel like we are able to have management over that state of affairs or affect it in any means. And I feel a lot of individuals have that generally, they’re identical to, “I’ve simply obtained to simply accept it, I’ve simply obtained to get on with it”, after which it is a continuous supply of stress. What I appreciated was that they stated, mainly, one of the best factor to do in that state of affairs is, “Do a factor”.
It would not should be the factor that solves the state of affairs. So, it isn’t like, go and repair a relationship together with your supervisor, or you do not have to resolve the restructure, or no matter is happening, however really simply doing one factor, some little factor that is in your management, which is likely to be, I do not know, even take a day’s vacation and go and do some studying, or go and ask for a mentor or one thing. It would not should be that the factor that solves the supply of stress, however simply taking some sort of motion generally is a response, a optimistic response to a state of affairs the place you’re feeling very uncontrolled. Simply do a factor, just about something; however doing nothing signifies that you are caught on this stress state of affairs, and doing a factor is a method that you just really feel extra management over it and over what you are doing.
Sarah Ellis: We talked about it earlier than on the podcast with individuals like Jen Moss, I feel we talked about burnout earlier than, however it’s one thing to take critically, as a result of whenever you take a look at the results of burnout, whether or not that is in a special a part of your life or at work, over and over it exhibits that for those who get burnout, you get to the purpose the place you’ve gotten a decreased sense of accomplishment, so that you simply really feel like what you do would not matter; you are much less inventive; your processing capability goes down; you are not as capable of remedy issues; and you may’t do large-scale considering. Once we’ve talked about it earlier than on the podcast, I feel I am by no means positive I have been absolutely burnt out the place I’ve wanted to do one thing very dramatic when it comes to taking a break.
However each time I’ve obtained near, I feel, burnout, I do discover that every one of these behaviours diminish. My means to zoom out, to assume large, to assume creatively, you get smaller in each means. I feel for those who can discover that taking place, as a result of I do assume it tends to creep up, it is a lot of repeated actions. So, for those who’re at work, for instance, it is likely to be you’re feeling a bit overwhelmed, however then the subsequent week you are still feeling a bit overwhelmed, after which the subsequent month you are still. It tends to be like that.
And I am considering step by step, and possibly earlier than you even discover it, it’s got to the purpose the place you are like, “I am unable to bear in mind the final time I did not really feel actually overwhelmed and I do not really feel very inventive and I am unable to assume large and I am struggling to resolve issues”. I feel the extra we are able to spot these alerts for ourselves and in addition for one another, I feel it may be actually useful to see in one another, the extra we are able to assist ourselves and assist different individuals too. So, what shocked you? Did something shock you?
Helen Tupper: Nicely, so within the first chapter, and once more, that is most likely the one which, as we stated, is most related to work, there’s quite a bit in that. Simply this concept of the stress cycle shocked me, I feel.
So, they speak about, whenever you’re getting pressured, the factor that caught with me was that you might want to discharge the stress. But it surely’s simply this concept that for those who do not construct right into a busy day or a hectic week, for those who do not construct a way of discharging stress, and discovering which means is certainly one of them, train may very well be one other one, I feel all of us may need alternative ways wherein we discharge stress and so they do speak via some methods, then mainly your physique cannot full the stress cycle. And what they are saying is that your physique mainly then holds on to that stress, and it can lead to well being issues, and that is a few of the issues that Sarah simply talked about there.
I feel simply actually considering like, “How am I discharging stress?” They speak in regards to the energy of train and whether or not that may be a bodily factor, or really simply sitting at your desk and sort of tense respiratory and even tensing all of your muscle mass up, that is one of many examples that they offer; tense all of your muscle mass up for a minute after which letting go. So, it would not should be loopy bodily train. But it surely did simply make me assume, you recognize, I am going on about my peloton on a regular basis, I am really dressed to peloton immediately, however for me that’s really, I feel, a part of how I full my stress cycle, as a result of I get on there and afterwards I simply really feel like I can get again to it now. And, yeah, I identical to that concept of if we do not full this cycle, then our physique holds on to the stress and that has unfavourable outcomes. So, take into consideration this factor as only a means of maintaining your physique wholesome, simply discharging no matter’s constructed up. That simply positively caught with me.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, the identical for me. I feel it was this concept of releasing the stress. It is a totally different course of to dealing with stress within the second. I feel that is what they’re very clear about. You have to disconnect dealing with the stress within the second. And I feel generally we’d assume, “That is it, I’ve coped with the hectic second”. However really, you want a separate course of, which is sort of the releasing. I used to be speaking to Helen about this earlier than and I used to be like, lets say, and clearly that is imagining, I am actually annoying Helen. We’re having a troublesome dialog that feels hectic. We might have these conversations and I’d assume, “Oh, okay, nicely I felt like I stayed actually open in that dialog and I handled it, I handled possibly some hard-to-hear suggestions nicely and we obtained to some good outcomes”. And so I’d assume, “Oh, that is okay, it was hectic however I did the fitting issues”, and also you would possibly be ok with your self. I feel the bit that I would not have then all the time thought of goes, “Oh, sure, however I’ve not launched that stress.
I did nicely in that second and that could be a good factor”. So, at work, I feel we are able to all determine these moments that really feel hectic to some extent, relying on what that scale is, from a really troublesome supervisor, as a result of it tends to be people-related, or it may very well be workload, I suppose, fairly than individuals, may simply be like, “I handled the stress of my day. One thing new got here in that then I needed to change my priorities”, and so we would nearly go, “Nicely, I did it, I handled that stress”, and you probably did. However then enthusiastic about, “Okay, nicely, what motion do I have to take to launch that stress in order that it would not construct up over time?” after which if it builds up, that is whenever you’re get to burnout. It did actually remind me of simply how essential it’s to seek out lively relaxation. And we have talked earlier than about lively relaxation. And lively relaxation could be, and so they do give this an instance, possibly you make one thing, may very well be something inventive. So, really I had some individuals in workshops this week speaking to me about knitting, how a lot they like knitting and gaming. So, knitting, gaming, each good examples of lively relaxation, in addition to the extra basic examples, like go for a run, elevate some weights, go and play desk tennis. I say that as a result of me and my companion purchased one another a desk tennis desk for Christmas! That is going to be my lively relaxation in 2025. I am very enthusiastic about it. However jokes to 1 aspect, that may most likely be good for me. So, nearly going, “Have you learnt what? That has been fairly troublesome. I’m simply going to go and play desk tennis for 5 minutes or 10 minutes”. I might should be absolutely in it, as a result of clearly I might wish to win.
Helen Tupper: Sarah’s fairly aggressive at every thing.
Sarah Ellis: I am fairly aggressive. However that may be an excellent launch of stress for me. I suppose it’s doubtlessly a few of the logic behind why, for some time, workplaces went loopy with the, “We will put all of those enjoyable issues within the workplace”. There most likely is a few rationale behind why that is likely to be good, however not if that is an alternative choice to precise significant work and being paid nicely. A desk tennis desk would not make up for that. However really, if all of the hygiene elements are in place… I noticed an organization lately, one I went to go to earlier this yr, the place they’ve a great deal of board video games. And really, I noticed a great deal of individuals enjoying board video games and simply having enjoyable. And I’ve to say, it wasn’t within the UK.
Helen Tupper: What’s your favorite board recreation, Sarah?
Sarah Ellis: Fascinating. I do not love board video games. I might fairly play a recreation, you recognize, like desk tennis.
Helen Tupper: So, extra lively.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I really do like charades, as a result of my 7-year-old likes charades.
Helen Tupper: I really feel like that is not a board recreation!
Sarah Ellis: Oh, is not it? Does that not depend? Okay.
Helen Tupper: That’s an lively! I like that, I like how you have taken board recreation and turned it into an lively!
Sarah Ellis: Oh, it would not depend? I really feel such as you’ve requested that query since you are — what’s your favorite board recreation?
Helen Tupper: Nicely, you recognize I am board-game-y, as a result of that is the type of factor that I might do as a household, like play a board recreation. No, my son, who’s the last word strategist, beats me on every thing, so, any board recreation he is obtained. So, it is like Cluedo; wins each time. I really feel like each board recreation. However yeah, I like all board video games, they’re enjoyable. So, what would possibly you do because of having watched this videobook?
Sarah Ellis: I feel the important thing motion for me was recognising the alternative ways to finish the stress cycle. So, it isn’t like there’s a method, you possibly can shortly full the stress cycle by some four-box respiratory. So, you recognize for those who simply needed to do a little bit of decompressing, and I do know that, however I do not assume I do this significantly frequently, but in addition making extra of a dedication to lively relaxation, I feel in 2025. It seems like a small factor, however I’ve lately moved home and I might obtained lively relaxation in place near the place I used to reside, so it was handy to lively relaxation, and so it actually labored for me. After which I’ve moved and I have to rediscover what that may appear like, simply because really there are some sensible constraints that make it a bit tougher the place I’m now, like we solely have one automotive, I do not reside as near someplace that I can simply stroll to, and I simply want to consider it. However I do know, we all the time know, train is nice.
However you recognize whenever you watch this stuff and it simply actually reminds you, it is like mainly do something, do any train. And I feel it is really easy to get into the behavior of not. I am good at strolling, I do exit for a stroll, however I nearly do not depend that as train as a result of I feel, “Nicely, my coronary heart charge by no means goes up for a begin”, and I am nearly utilizing that extra as a sort of getting some power and shifting my physique, as a result of I am about to start out work and it is possibly my very own model of a commute if I am working at residence. And I do not assume a stroll releases my stress cycle, as a result of often I am enthusiastic about work or I am making ready for work, and it is firstly of a day, not on the finish of a day.
And so, I feel I would like to finish my days releasing stress and I do not assume I do this in the mean time, as a result of I feel typically I am working the place I’ll simply stroll downstairs, and possibly not have that boundary of like, I’ve gone and executed one thing, not executed some lively relaxation. This one mixed with speaking to Katie about change, I am positively beginning to do this contemporary begin impact, and it all the time begins with like, “Proper, in 2025, I’ll do this stuff”. And likewise, attempting to be actually practical about easy methods to make that occur, fairly than too imprecise. What about you?
Helen Tupper: Mine was the which means factor. So, Emily, one of many sisters, was very articulate, as a result of she may simply say what her which means is in a press release. And I believed, “Oh, I do know what our firm’s which means is, about making careers higher for everyone. However my private which means, I feel, is likely to be barely, nicely, just a bit bit extra particular person. And I do not assume I may — nicely, I am unable to say it now. In the event you stated, “What offers you which means at work?” And so I believed, I began to jot down it down, like I stated, once I was on the prepare, as a result of I had my notes open, I began to jot down one thing down. I used to be like, “It is getting there”.
After which, one of many issues that they stated is, you possibly can ask different individuals. And I may say to you, “The place do you see me get which means in my work?” And I’d ask a few those who and simply see if I can get to a press release that I can determine with that I am going, “Yeah, that is why I do what I do. That is the factor that provides me essentially the most which means”.
I might prefer to take that as an motion away from it.
Sarah Ellis: It is a great way of doing it, as a result of I used to be like, “Oh, yeah, if I used to be enthusiastic about you…” and clearly firm missions and functions are all the time extra common, like, “Oh, we wish to make Squiggly Careers higher for everybody”, it isn’t going to be a person assertion. And likewise, I used to be considering, nicely, for you, I might be actually shocked if there wasn’t one thing extra people-y in there. And I might count on there to be one thing round power. The power and the individuals and bringing individuals collectively and the power that you just get from that, I used to be like, “That feels extra such as you”. I feel mine can be about concepts, like concepts which might be helpful for individuals, most likely so simple as that. That means to do one thing possibly that hasn’t been executed earlier than, however that you then see individuals use and that you just’re like, “Oh, yeah, individuals may level to that”, and be like, nicely, you have created one thing right here that is made a distinction.
As a result of once I take into consideration what I am pleased with it, it is all the time the place we have now created one thing. In all probability additionally, I might have one thing about creating with different individuals, as a result of my favorite creations, the concepts that I really feel most linked to, are by no means those that I’ve executed solo, they’re all the time ones that we have labored on collectively. So, possibly it is about collaborative creation. But it surely’s an excellent query you see. So, yeah, it makes you assume it via
. Helen Tupper: I’ve added power into my work-in-progress assertion, so thanks for that little construct. So, that’s it for immediately. Do not forget that tomorrow, you have obtained Sarah, who’s going to be speaking to Amelia, simply to get her direct perspective on the work, and in addition make these connections to profession growth. After which subsequent week is the final week of the Videobook Membership, the place we’re going to be Predictably Irrational, a videobook by Dan Ariely.
So, we’ll be diving into that, after which I’ve obtained a dialog with Dan about that as nicely. Sarah Ellis: So, that is every thing for this week. Again with you once more quickly. Bye for now.
