00:03:10: What is supposed by ‘continuers’
00:07:06: Interview 1: Andrew Aitken…
00:07:31: … significance of later-life careers
00:09:54: … challenges confronted
00:11:58: … significance of networks
00:13:00: … reaching longevity
00:17:37: Interview 2: Avivah Wittenberg-Cox…
00:18:44: … advantages to persevering with to work
00:22:58: … the employer perspective
00:26:51: … adjustments to contemplate
00:32:46: … the place to start out
00:34:10: … Avivah’s profession recommendation
00:34:50: Ultimate ideas
Sarah Ellis: Hello, I am Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And I am Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And that is the Squiggly Careers podcast. This episode is a part of our Squiggly Profession Stage Collection, the place we’re speaking about 5 totally different profession levels, and sharing some insights and a few concepts that we hope will provide help to particularly achieve these moments in your Squiggly Profession. We’re protecting profession starters, returners, setbacks, changers, and right now our focus is on profession continuers.
Helen Tupper: And I’m captivated with all of the levels that we have lined however I believe right now’s matter of continuers is only one the place I really feel like there’s nonetheless lots of work to do. Clearly, for people on this stage, that may be you in the event you’re listening, there may be numerous issues so that you can do and contemplate about your profession, which is what we’re attempting that can assist you with. However I simply really feel broadly, there may be extra work to be performed right here. And I am really actually enthusiastic about how Squiggly Careers could make that occur and be supportive to individuals at this stage. So, perhaps contemplate right now’s episode a begin to our work on profession continuers.
We recognise that different individuals have experience that we do not on this space and that’s the reason we now have visitors on this episode to share a few of that with you. So, you will hear from my dialog with Andrew Aitken, who’s an economist on the OECD. All sounds very formal, we do not usually have economists on the podcast. However the OECD is the Organisation for Financial Cooperation and Improvement. They work with over 100 nations to advertise insurance policies that enhance financial and social wellbeing of individuals. They’ve performed a very good report, which I really went to Paris to launch, which is the report on selling higher profession selections for longer working lives. There may be some very compelling analysis in that report about why we have to give attention to careers in later life, each for people and their alternatives, and likewise economically why that may be a good factor. So, you are going to hear Andrew simply give a little bit of a abstract of a few of that stuff, I suppose, simply set the scene for profession continuers.
Then, you will hear Sarah’s dialog with somebody that we’re a fan of all of her work on gender and generational range, which is Avivah Wittenberg-Cox. And, Sarah, what can individuals anticipate from that dialog?
Sarah Ellis: You possibly can anticipate Avivah to be as good as she all the time is. So, she brings unbelievable power, she calls issues out, she’s very trustworthy and direct and she’s going to say what she thinks and the place there are gaps. She’s not afraid to really make individuals conscious of these gaps. However she’s additionally acquired a lot of sensible expertise from the conversations that she’s having with individuals in later life profession stage, but additionally with organisations too. I might spend a very long time listening to Avivah. So, she is unquestionably value spending a while listening to and studying from.
Helen Tupper: And in addition to the conversations we now have right now on this episode, we have additionally acquired the Profession Continuers Information. That may be a PDF doc that you could obtain totally free. We are going to hyperlink to it within the present notes. It consists of coach-yourself questions, it is acquired a device so that you can check out to be able to replicate on this stage and what it means for you in the intervening time. We have additionally acquired an extra interview with Lyndsey Simpson who runs a superb organisation referred to as the 55/Redefined Group. I believe they’re doing a little nice issues with firms on this explicit area. So, please take a look at that, share this episode, share the information with anybody that is on this explicit stage.
Sarah Ellis: And truly, one of many issues that’s fascinating to learn a bit about is the way you describe and take into consideration this group. So, one of many issues that individuals reply very well to is after we share our Squiggly Swaps. So, these are phrases that we are able to use which can be way more reflective of how work feels proper now. So, fairly than saying, “Oh, careers are about ladders”, they’re about squiggles; fairly than saying, “They’re about titles”, they’re about skills. And truly, this was an episode the place we did discover it fairly arduous to call, to give you, effectively, how will we describe this in a means that looks like individuals will recognise it? And we have sort of gone with ‘continuers’ however I believe it was our greatest try, fairly one which we felt was a proper reply. As a result of this concept of referring to individuals as ‘older staff’ I believe definitely for me makes me fairly uncomfortable, as a result of I do not assume individuals will discover that notably motivating. Sure, you may be older than you have been earlier than, however do you actually need to be described in that means?
Helen Tupper: And at what level do you turn into an older employee? Is that after I’m over 45, over 50, over 55, over 60? Andrew will discuss it, however by 2050, one in 5 individuals shall be over 65. Is that an older employee? I simply really feel like that does not match this stage.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and fairly a couple of individuals really have gotten in contact with me about ageism and feeling like they’ve skilled discrimination due to their age, once they’ve been making use of for roles, perhaps as a result of individuals are making assumptions about, I do not know, how good they’re at expertise. And individuals are really saying, “Nicely, I am actually good at it”. Or, “Why would you need to do that job?” since you’ve been perhaps extra senior previously, however you maybe do not need to be main an enormous workforce now, otherwise you need to work otherwise. However then, individuals are second-guessing nearly your motivations and what’s in it for you, and that making it then a lot tougher to get an interview or to get the roles that you just’re on the lookout for.
So, it looks like there’s an actual disconnect between really, when I’ve spoken to individuals on this stage of their Squiggly Profession, what they’re saying to me, which isn’t usually that totally different from another stage. For a few of these individuals, they are going to need to progress by altering careers; for a few of them, they need to develop their specialism. So, I really feel just like the profession dialog questions that you’ve got with individuals at each stage of their Squiggly Profession may be the identical. Truly, it is sort of age agnostic. However perhaps the way you reply these questions does change as you become older. However nearly, the purpose at which they alter goes to be actually particular person. So, for some individuals you would possibly get to 50 and nothing would possibly change about your reply to these questions for one more ten years. For different individuals, perhaps that shall be an actual tipping level to pondering, I do not know, “I do need to do one thing totally different, or I need to work otherwise”. And this concept that we are able to categorise individuals by, “Oh, effectively, if you’re 50 to 65 –“
Helen Tupper: “You need to be pondering this”.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. You sort of go, “However we’d by no means say that about another age”. So, it is that entire factor about, effectively, ask individuals what motivates them, ask individuals what they need from the work that they do, fairly than assume, and I believe there are numerous assumptions about this group.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I believe it is a notably necessary episode for individuals on either side of this profession stage dialog to take heed to. So, for the person who would possibly consider, “Nicely, I am a profession continuer, I really feel like I am dealing with into ageism and I really feel like that is one thing that I want to handle for myself”, but additionally the particular person asking the questions, just like the supervisor or whoever. I believe all of us want to consider the language, all of us want to consider how we speak and assist individuals at this stage in the way in which that works for them. And so hopefully, you may hear why we have to try this from Andrew, hopefully you may hear a bit about how you are able to do that from Avivah. Similar to it is a stage for continuers, I believe that is additionally a dialog that Sarah and I want to proceed past this episode.
Andrew, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.
Andrew Aitken: Hello, Helen. Good to be with you.
Helen Tupper: I am actually glad to have a possibility to speak to you about later-life careers and to get your perspective, as a result of I’ve personally discovered the analysis that the OECD has performed on this area, I discovered it to be probably the most particular and probably the most helpful analysis that I’ve seen. So, I am actually pleased that we’ll get a possibility to dive into it a bit extra deeply now with our viewers. Perhaps let’s begin with an enormous query to start with, which I believe some individuals would possibly assume, Oh, Helen, we all know the reply to this”, however I am actually, actually to listen to it out of your perspective and with the analysis as effectively, why is it necessary for people and organisations to give attention to later-life careers?
Andrew Aitken: Nicely, it is necessary as a result of older staff symbolize an growing share of the labour market. So, by 2050, it is projected that one in six staff shall be over the age of 65 on common throughout OECD nations. And naturally, with declining start charges, there are fewer youthful staff to interchange retirees. And on high of that, you’ve got acquired lots of companies that are dealing with talent shortages and employee shortages. So, clearly, maintaining mid- to late-career staff, so roughly that is 45-plus, engaged absolutely within the workforce can clearly assist fill this hole. And the opposite factor in fact is that have issues. So, we all know that older staff usually carry stability, institutional data, networks and likewise mentoring potential, which might actually profit firms. So, there is a very sturdy enterprise case for specializing in mid- to late-career staff. And likewise, many individuals will want or need to work past conventional retirement ages. So, for some, it’ll be pushed by the necessity to transfer away maybe from work that is bodily demanding or mentally demanding, whereas for different individuals it may be simply as a consequence of altering preferences or adjustments in well being standing or caregiving tasks, for instance.
It is actually essential for governments, workers and social companions to rethink work buildings, which traditionally have tended to be fairly linear. You do your schooling, you then work, you then retire, and that is altering. And naturally, we’re additionally seeing that employment charges have improved dramatically. So, for instance, within the UK, within the final twenty years, amongst 55- to 64-year-olds, the employment fee has risen from 51% in 2000 to 65% in 2023. And much more dramatically, it is gone up at ages 65 to 69. So, the employment fee has greater than doubled from simply 11% in 2000 to 26% in 2023. So, we’re not speaking about one thing that is going to occur sooner or later, it is already occurred. So, mid-career and older staff are taking over an growing share of the of the workforce.
Helen Tupper: And doubling employment charges make it sound like that is all occurring very simply and really naturally and other people will simply method these totally different milestones of their profession and the alternatives will simply be open to them. However in actuality lots of people that I speak to do not discover it that straightforward. And I puzzled if we might simply speak in regards to the actuality for individuals who may be approaching this explicit stage of their profession and what are some potential challenges they may be confronted with within the workforce right now, and what they will do in response to them?
Andrew Aitken: There’s undoubtedly lots of challenges. So, I imply an apparent one is age discrimination, which stays persistent. So, in a survey we did on the OECD with AARP in america in 12 OECD nations, we discovered that within the UK, simply over 30% of staff over the age of 45 had skilled age discrimination within the workforce. And it isn’t nearly hiring, it is also about alternatives for coaching, for instance. So, mid- to late-career staff usually tend to be ignored for coaching alternatives, for alternatives for promotion, for instance. That is an enormous one. And naturally, it isn’t additionally structural or institutional ageism, however it may also be self-directed. And that is additionally associated to declining confidence in job search. So, as individuals become older, they are usually much less assured in on the lookout for jobs. They perhaps have not had a lot expertise, as a result of they’ve perhaps been in a single job for fairly a very long time. And so, they are not updated with the newest instruments and issues for really discovering work. You too can have self-directed ageism, which can be necessary to bear in mind.
So, at a person stage, I believe elevating consciousness of how these ageist narratives can form notion is necessary. That actually feeds into simply broader discussions that we now have in public when it comes to the media, stereotypes and issues about age, so it isn’t nearly what occurs within the workforce, however broader societal dialogue can be necessary for that.
Helen Tupper: And I am simply interested by the function of being an advocate and even an activist in the sort of profession, it is nearly like there is a pressure between that will take lots of confidence, and your level is definitely some individuals at this stage do not have the arrogance. So, the necessity to turn into an advocate and activist similtaneously, “I am not likely feeling very assured about making this alteration”, it is fairly fascinating. I simply puzzled whether or not the function in a neighborhood, feeling like, “I am not making this alteration alone, I am linked to a bunch of people who find themselves additionally a part of this profession stage and attempting to create extra alternatives”, whether or not you’d seen something in just like the function of communities and the way that would contribute to individuals?
Andrew Aitken: Yeah, that is necessary. We do see in survey responses that we have performed that always, individuals are on the lookout for data on alternatives, and likewise simply assist to really make adjustments. Once more, some older staff simply do not have these networks, so constructing these networks may be actually necessary to getting within the door to having a job interview, for instance.
Helen Tupper: One of many bits within the analysis that caught out to me, and clearly I am taking a look at issues on a regular basis with like a Squiggly Careers lens on them, however there was a degree that I noticed about profession mobility and people who find themselves in later careers really making a transfer, doing a little bit of a change or a pivot or a squiggle, no matter you need to name it, however they’re really having a lot of advantages when it comes to their longevity, so mobility at midlife and past resulting in longevity of their profession. I ponder in the event you might simply discuss that slightly bit extra, as a result of I believe it is a actually fascinating level for individuals to consider, “May this be the precise time for me to make a squiggle, notably understanding what the analysis reveals on that time?”
Andrew Aitken: I imply, after we take a look at individuals who have really modified jobs or modified profession and may evaluate what occurred to their wages or traits of their work, like job satisfaction or totally different points of their working situations, then we do have a tendency to search out they do enhance. We’re not saying something causal about this, simply an affiliation, however typically we do see that there’s an enchancment, in order that’s encouraging. You are inclined to see a lot smaller wage beneficial properties in comparison with youthful age teams. I imply, clearly, at youthful ages individuals are simply shifting round, discovering a greater match. You are inclined to see larger wage beneficial properties on the decrease finish of the age distribution in comparison with the older staff, however we nonetheless do see them. I imply, on this analysis, we’re not advocating that everybody ought to change jobs or change profession. For many individuals, they are going to be pleased the place they’re, and that may be greatest for them to remain the place they’re, and naturally, that is high quality. However we’re simply declaring that with longer working lives, it is simply extra possible that individuals are going to have to vary job or profession or need to change job or profession afterward in life.
Helen Tupper: And if I am a supervisor or somebody in HR who’s listening to this and desires to create an organisation that embraces later-life careers and that helps individuals, what are a number of the issues that you just assume organisations ought to be taking a look at to ensure that that to occur?
Andrew Aitken: We have been speaking to lots of employers and we’re beginning to see employers implement some actually good packages, for instance, round coaching programmes focused at mid- to late-career staff. Additionally, within the space of age discrimination, there’s some actually good toolkits. So, within the UK, the Centre for Higher Ageing with CIPD has developed a toolkit referred to as Good Recruitment for Older Employees or GROW. So, that actually provides some greatest observe when it comes to what to do, when it comes to promoting for jobs and so forth, in order that the language, for instance, is age impartial. So, these actually sensible instruments are on the market. And as I say, focused coaching programmes. I imply, usually employers overlook, or they assume that older staff, as a result of they’re older, that they are going to go away the workforce. However in fact, really, there is a good probability {that a} 50-year-old goes to be round within the labour marketplace for one other 15, 20 years, whereas really youthful staff have a tendency to maneuver round extra. So, usually that does not actually make sense.
Actually attempting to faucet into the potential of older staff is actually necessary. And analysis that the OECD has performed really exhibits that multi-generational workforces can really enhance productiveness. So, when you will have youthful staff and older staff working collectively, this really improves productiveness. As I mentioned originally, I imply, that is already the workforce that they’ve. So, the workforce of the long run is already of their office now.
Sarah Ellis: So, I believe Andrew has performed a superb job there of setting the scene after we take into consideration Squiggly Profession continuers. And I do assume this concept of retiring retirement is one which’s most likely been round for some time. I bear in mind studying a very good Harvard Enterprise Evaluate article from Tammy Erickson referred to as that, Retiring Retirement, 10 or 15 years in the past.
Helen Tupper: It is like 2004, that article, I believe!
Sarah Ellis: Is that how lengthy it’s?
Helen Tupper: Yeah!
Sarah Ellis: And I bear in mind pondering, “Oh, okay, yeah, I can actually see why that is altering from really a monetary perspective, individuals will work for longer, but additionally which means and motivation. Folks need to preserve working, however most likely in fairly a unique means”. And I believe what Avivah will speak to you all about now could be, that is one thing that we all know, however there’s most likely not sufficient motion. There is a little bit of a knowing-doing hole right here. And I believe what she is actually attempting to immediate and provoke goes, “We have got to start out doing issues in another way now. We won’t look forward to different individuals to resolve this downside for us”. And if there’s anybody who’s gonna pioneer and champion change, I believe Avivah is an effective place to start out.
Avivah, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us on the Squiggly Careers podcast. I am actually trying ahead to our dialog right now.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: All the time a pleasure to be with you.
Sarah Ellis: So, I used to be studying in your LinkedIn profile, you will have an excellent assertion the place you say, “Careers was once a 30-year dash, and now they are a 50-year marathon”. And I used to be pondering, I can not work out whether or not that is motivating on day, or demotivating perhaps on a nasty day.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: I believe it will depend on your age.
Sarah Ellis: Perhaps!
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: The youthful you might be, I believe the tougher that’s to listen to. The nearer you get to 50-plus, the extra enticing that concept turns into, as a result of individuals do not actually like the concept of stopping, doing nothing, going and enjoying golf. It may be momentarily fascinating to some who’ve been drained out by many many years, however for many of us, what I name Q3-ers, or the individuals over 50 and beneath 75, it sounds slightly boring.
Sarah Ellis: And I used to be taking a look at some stats. So, by 2050, 25% of the OECD inhabitants shall be over 65. While you take a look at the newest McKinsey experiences, there’s some fascinating McKinsey analysis, you take a look at the work of anyone like Tammy Erickson, who really I got here throughout years and years in the past, the place she wrote this text for Harvard Enterprise Evaluate on Retiring Retirement, this concept of, there simply will not be this line within the sand in the identical means anymore, the place you aimed for an age and precisely at that age, you stopped, after which your life flipped into one thing very totally different. So, if we have got individuals listening and perhaps they’re in that Q3, as you describe it, what are a number of the questions you’ll encourage individuals to be asking of themselves about their work and their profession? As a result of my assumption is your work will feel and appear totally different at the moment, maybe than what you’ve got performed earlier than. However I believe this concept of, “Oh, however it should simply cease”, that appears to be the factor that we’re shifting away from for some superb causes. There’s a lot of advantages to persevering with to work, no matter that appears like.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: There’s a lot of advantages and we could have no selection. Let’s speak brutally truthfully. The demographic adjustments that you just’re pointing to is principally, we’re shifting from a human pyramid, the place for all of human historical past, we have been a couple of outdated individuals and a mass of younger individuals principally financing our pensions, to a whole sq.. So, the pyramid’s gone, we’re now a sq., the place we’re generationally balanced. The workforce is definitely going to be 50% over 50, 50% beneath the age of fifty. That is a really totally different ballgame. And the youthful individuals get up to the truth that we can not retire, our pension programs won’t final, governments cannot say that and proceed to be elected. So, there’s this ridiculous fact that everyone within the pension area is aware of, is we do not need the monetary wherewithal to retire on the ages our mother and father might need. Get up! It truly is a barely terrifying factor. We’re not prepared, we do not actually know that, it isn’t being mentioned very clearly, and the sooner you recognize that, it is even higher in the event you perceive that at 20, as a result of it means you’ll be able to then tempo your self and begin saving and getting ready for these marathon lives and careers the place, yeah, you’ll be able to have a number of careers.
We’ve got this concept that we now have one profession and 20-year-olds are determined to search out out which one is the precise one. There isn’t any proper one. We’re a number of, multifaceted, multi-talented. These new longer careers, hopefully, on the upside, simply providing you with the actually darkish draw back, the upside is that we are able to do and be many issues over time. And I believe we are able to strive our arms, and younger individuals already are. They have facet hustles and multi-potentiates, within the language of certainly one of my younger pals, and that is nice. I believe we could have richer and extra diversified careers and developments than we used to. It’s extremely arduous to study this at 60. Like, “Oh, at 60, I need to reinvent myself”. It is tougher than realising at 45 that really, post-50, I am way more intrinsically pushed. And customarily, and I would say particularly ladies, come 50, it is like, you recognize what? I’ve given, I’ve performed, I am performed pleasing others, I’m now going to take heed to my very own motivations. What do I need to turn into after I really develop up? And other people over 50 are very a lot in the identical parallel journey as lots of people of their 20s. It is a journey of self-discovery, it is what do I need to be? What do I need to study? How do I need to reinvent? And neglect recreation. We need to go into recreation, and that is much more thrilling than a few years on the golf course.
Sarah Ellis: I used to be with a bunch final week, and everyone on this group, and it was a whole lot of individuals, over 500 individuals, have been going by means of restructures and redundancy of their organisation. And I undoubtedly heard from a few of these individuals who have been older, who have been saying, “I’m involved that the job market works in opposition to fairly than for me. Folks do not need to rent me as a result of I’m older”. And truly, what I used to be listening to from these individuals was not a insecurity in themselves, of their expertise or of their potential to make use of tech. Usually, these items are way more mindset, in my expertise, than they’re to do along with your age. However their fear was how they have been going to be seen by different organisations, the judgment which may come their means as a result of they are not of their 20s or in that mid-period of the place you are actually going for it perhaps in your profession. I simply puzzled what your observations have been extra from an organization or an organisation perspective; and are you seeing organisations pondering extra innovatively and proactively about this concept of a balanced workforce?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Not but. Early days, proper? So, this entire phenomenon of longevity and new demographics just isn’t precisely new, however it’s newly hitting actuality. So, the rubber now could be hitting the street, I would say, post-pandemic. We understood slightly bit what was occurring and what was occurring to older individuals. So, I believe there’s lots of waking up gently. Now, we’re on the identical factor with the older, is that the elevated labour pressure of the final 10 or 15 years has been nearly solely older individuals staying in work longer, with a couple of firms which can be welcoming that pattern. However on the entire, no, the office stays terribly ageist, and firms and employers and particularly recruiters do not actually care in case you have 20 years’ expertise or 5 years’ expertise. 5 is normally higher as a result of the stereotypes, you are youthful, you are hipper, you are quicker to study, you are tech-friendly, none of which is true or confirmed.
The OECD has performed some nice research on the truth that in the event you rent individuals in Q3, you even have extra loyalty, extra higher performing groups. You’ve individuals who have a rare quantity of information that they will practice and develop the subsequent technology. There are lots of upsides to intergenerationality, however it’s important to get by means of and within the door. And that’s nonetheless a little bit of a problem when hiring managers have been confirmed to be extremely ageist. So, the work if you’re on this place is to simply accept that actuality and put together your self for it. They do not actually care about expertise. What they care about is credentials. So, present that you just’re open to studying, that you just’re open to tech, do the AI course, do the upskilling, do the certification. Even when it is simply stuff on LinkedIn Studying, or it would not should be it’s important to return for an engineering diploma of 5 years, you will have to have the ability to exhibit, simply to beat stereotypes, that you’re open to studying, open to expertise, very prepared to adapt, and really expert at doing so. And that may reassure and overcome a number of the boundaries to entry. After which all the strengths that older staff have may be dropped at bear within the office. However I believe it is only for us to calibrate the place we’re in historical past and that it’ll take.
Sarah Ellis: It is a systemic problem that we’re speaking about and as you’ve got described, not one thing that’s going to vary in a single day, so this may progress over time. However what would you wish to see change shortly that you just assume, “I’ve seen that there are some perhaps small actions that are not going to remodel all the things, however that do make a distinction”, whether or not these are issues that people can do or that organisations can do; what are these adjustments that we must always all be contemplating?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Entrepreneurship for one. Once more, bear in mind ladies, after we could not get into the company world or we could not get promoted? We began an terrible lot of companies and also you and I are fairly good examples of how that labored out for us. So, an enormous a part of entrepreneurship today is the over-50s, who’re seen as for every kind of causes. I would say one is entrepreneurship. Simply contemplate it, discover it. And the opposite factor is, take a little bit of time. What lots of people do not do, particularly if they have been made redundant, or — it is a particularly emotional time. Big problems with standing and id loss, and also you’re lonely and alone and we do not all the time share a few of these points. So, I would say take a pause, discover a group, do not go it alone, and use the chance of time to really see this as a possibility to do one thing you would possibly fairly do. Who’re you now? Who have you ever turn into? Take slightly little bit of time to digest the previous.
Persons are fairly often in an excessive amount of of a rush in midlife transitions. They assume it’ll be a query of months. It’s generally a query of years, as a result of we now have loads to digest and to consider, and use the time and the chance and hopefully peer group or coaching programme or instructional useful resource to fulfill others in the identical scenario, and discover who you need to turn into subsequent. And see that as an journey and a possibility to turn into much more or do one thing that you just would possibly consider in additional, that you just may be extra all for, that you just all the time wished to do however did not have time for. These are the moments, the items of those crises is to offer us an opportunity at reinvention. Seize it.
Sarah Ellis: And what’s one change that you really want organisations to make? Plenty of individuals working in organisations and may usually create change or affect change, or are in positions to foyer for a few of these adjustments to occur. So, in an organisation, what do you need to see that may be totally different that will assist this stability of intergenerational work?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Nicely, I am nonetheless at step one, which is get up! Organisations have to get up to the brand new demographics. The quickest means to try this is measure what proportion of your workers are over 50 and beneath 50, to understand that the long run just isn’t the younger in our new bizarre, sq. demographic form. The longer term is the older, as customers and as expertise. And so, the query is, in the event you’re fully youth-oriented and assume that you have to transfer these younger individuals in and thru your buildings the way in which lots of skilled providers corporations, for instance, are structured, the concept is, what if there are not any extra younger individuals? What if there are loads fewer of them? And what if lots of the data really exists in individuals older than you are anticipating, and so they’re about to stroll out the door, or you might be kicking them out? So, get up to the truth that, yeah, your future lies on this generational, this new, solely new generational stability, which can take some consideration to design again in. We’re completely not designed for generational stability, we’re designed on the outdated pyramid.
Sarah Ellis: And if you wish to see that very starkly, I used to be really studying the McKinsey report that we’ll put within the toolkit to assist this podcast, and so they have performed the diagrams.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: That is a fairly dire one, is not it?
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and so they present how the pyramid is reversing, and so they present totally different nations. However in each place internationally, the form is altering. And I believe the simplicity, we frequently speak in regards to the metrics that matter, or measure what issues, I believe the simplicity of your advice of going, “Nicely, simply what proportion are beneath 50 and over 50?” I believe that is one thing that each organisation would have that knowledge available, whether or not they’re selecting to make use of that knowledge or selecting to share that knowledge. However I believe that is additionally a courageous factor for organisations to do. Such as you mentioned on gender, earlier than you needed to do it, there have been these organisations that have been like, “Nicely, we’re selecting. We’re not being made to do that, however we’ll select. And we would not be the place we need to be right now”, however really by selecting to share it, you present that you’re giving it the eye, precisely as you’ve got described.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: And simply so as to add, as a result of some firms will try this on the expertise HR facet, you additionally need to do it on the patron facet, much more on the patron facet, they’re youth addled and youth-focused, when all of the belongings, all the cash, all of the buying energy is within the over-50 Q3 consumer. And understanding that and adapting to that actuality, which can be more and more feminine, as a result of that is one other overlap between gender and age, is ladies are set to be inheriting and making an enormous wealth switch within the coming many years. Corporations would possibly need to control that too. There’s an enormous quantity of alternative on this longevity economic system for firms that shall be one step forward of the sport, simply as there was in gender.
Sarah Ellis: If anyone is listening now and they’re interested by re-imagining what retirement’s going to seem like for them, so that they’re on this transition interval, and perhaps they aren’t certain the place to start out, so that they know the place they’re, however they’re like, “The place do I’m going first?” the place would you level individuals to simply begin studying slightly bit extra, whether or not that is one thing to learn, watch or take heed to?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: They’ll come and do my brief, three-session on-line course, referred to as the Midlife Rethink. I am operating one in April. They’ll search for the #careerscanchange, which is one thing organised by Phoenix Group, an insurance coverage firm within the UK, that is introduced collectively over a dozen firms which can be all engaged on midlife transitions. They usually can search for, even within the UK, there is a nationwide programme of what is referred to as the Midlife MOT, which is a service in job centres to assist individuals rethink and reevaluate the place they’re and the place they need to go subsequent. If they have a bit more cash and a bit extra time, they will try Oxford has a brand new six-month programme the place you’ll be able to go and spend the six months with a bunch of mid-life professionals interested by their subsequent steps. A rising variety of universities all over the world are including in these sorts of programmes. So, there’s extra sources coming.
Sarah Ellis: And we all the time end our professional interviews by asking you to share your greatest piece of profession recommendation with our listeners. So, these may very well be your individual phrases of knowledge or one thing that somebody has shared with you that is simply actually caught?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: My normal profession recommendation is take heed to everyone, learn all the things after which ignore all of it and do what your intestine tells you.
Sarah Ellis: I like that! Keep curious after which true to your self on the identical time. Thanks a lot and we all the time love speaking to you and love following your work.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: My pleasure, Sarah, beautiful to be with you.
Helen Tupper: So, I hope you’re feeling knowledgeable and impressed with that dialog with Avivah, which is all the time how I come out of any dialog with Avivah. Please do comply with and assist her work, learn the article the OECD have written, obtain the information, as a result of these issues are there that can assist you, and please share them with different those that may be at this stage as effectively.
Sarah Ellis: However that is all the things for this episode. Thanks a lot for listening and we’re again with you once more quickly. Bye for now.
Helen Tupper: Bye everybody.
